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Let me add that In many cases the title tag will also contain the website's name, as in <title>Awesome Cool Headline | website name<title></li> <li>A good CMS will let you differentiate between headline in title and headline on the page (the H1)</li> <li>If your website is indexed by Google News the shown headline will be the H1, not the title tag</li> </ul></title>

Thanks for the input guys ... This does help a lot ... it's weird that word stuffing doesn't seem to matter ... to me 14 mentions IN CAPS!!! on the same page is pushing a line that Google wouldn't like.  But yes, it is maybe not the best marketing practice and they are quite, quite wedded to the idea.  It will be all caps or nothing.  Thanks so much for helping me out and I guess I need to research the hummingbird updates more because it just seems wrong to me that this is mostly ok. Lisa