Link analysis going Crazy. Next Linkscape update. Multiple Problems

[Gyorgy]

Thanks for the detailed info! It'd be great to receive updates like this.

[OlivierChateau]

Thanks you guys for the follow up and explanation but as some of the PRO member have already mentioned in this thread, most of us are not running large sites and using OSE for large sites. Seeing such huge changes without a heads up, is something that has taken many of us by surprise. There is not one single metrics in the latest updates that is not way off compared to the previous updates for our site. Some of my competitors have seen many changes but some have not? What should i then trust?

Let me be honest with you guys the responses you have provided so far have not been satisfactory.

I know you guys are working hard at this but i can't stress enough how urgent you need to come up with an "official" point of view moving forward.

Thanks,

Olivier

[katemats]

Thanks Gyorgy - I am glad you found it useful.

For what it is worth, we have another index update planned in 2-3 weeks,  and then another 3 weeks out - each index should get progressively better.

The team is working over time here though - the hard part is that the changes we make now can take 2+ months to propagate.

All the domains people sent us yesterday helped us identify another bug with our index, so we have a fix for that too.  But since it takes 3-5 weeks to crawl, and then another 2-3 weeks to process you won't be able to see those improvements for another 2+ months.  However, by December, the index will be better than it has ever been - with more domains and links.

Thanks again for your patience and all the details - it has really helps us track down issues.

[ShaMenz]

Rand,

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your latest post, Linkscape September Update in the SEOmoz Blog.

Sha

[randfish]

Wow! You caught that fast Thanks Sha - glad we can keep in close touch with everyone around this issue.

[ShaMenz]

LOL...hanging on your every tweet!

but seriously though... it's much appreciated.

[mvcdmail]

A simple asterisk next to the new results linking to a similar explanation as above would have made the difference for many members.  The staff's view of the situation in-house is more nuanced, of course, but you guys aren't seeing the forest for the trees: As the Linkscape system becomes more refined, more and more of the userbase will come to regard seomoz's stats as the gospel truth.

So?  Give users the statistical qualifications they'll need when changes occur; provide clear, up-front documentation alongside all significant algorithmic changes, and consider the plight of those SEOs whose expectations of your service are very simple: to see their numbers go up, relative to the work they've put in.  You just can't remain blind to that.  Kate's response here is a good step, but still incomplete as Oliver notes above.

SEOmoz is a killer service, one I'd invest in if the opportunity arose, but this lack of support hints at a company culture out of touch with the tenets of their own business model's success.  So, stay mindful of the little guys. Their audience you'll need to satisfy in the long run to growth & profitability.

[randfish]

Hi Olivier - sorry the responses to date haven't been to your satisfaction. Unfortunately, there's not a ton I can do to provide more detail/color. Metrics are going to change every index, sometimes substantially when we change what we're crawling or how we calculate metrics. The relative comparison between self/competitors/broader field should remain fairly useful/usable as a way to think about data between indices, but I can't argue the point that right now, comparing/thinking historically about Linkscape metrics is rarely useful.

We do hope that as we get more stable, make greater improvements and achieve wider/larger indices, the historical comparisons will become more useful and usable, but that's still many months off.

[OlivierChateau]

Everything i have read about this issue has never come close to answering one of the most fundamental question for a small business owner like me:

Some of my competitors have seen many changes but some have not? What should i then trust?

The answers being given that all should be set in 2/3 months is not acceptable & just as an FYI there has been no changes in any other link metrics from google webmaster tools etc.

Finally i will conclude by saying that I run a site that is 7 months old so the idea that I have old links and that the value of my links today are lower than 7 months ago make me crazy. In a launch phase like mine, all these metrics are key and i still remain skeptical that maybe SEOmoz is not for me the little guy but for older larger site that have a lot more history.

Bottom line all this is disappointing.

Olivier

[randfish]

I don't think we have a satisfactory answer for you or for ourselves. So many things can affect when/whether/how metrics change that I'd be lying if I gave a single answer. It could be:

• Some sites earn more links on pages we do/don't crawl

• Some sites earn links from places that our metrics count less/more

• Some sites lose existing links

Which particular competitors have precisely which issues happening and what's a result of changes in PA/DA calculation or mozRank/mozTrust scaling is something we can't say today.

We could do this if we only crawled the same pages every index, but we know from experience this produces terrible results (as we both miss new pages and as in 1 month, ~15-20% of what we crawl decays with 404s/500s/30xs/etc). For now, our plan of attack is improving size and continuing to tweak the algorithms to get closer and more accurate correlations with Google's rankings.

I'm sorry this is so frustrating - it's a massively complex problem and we're doing the best we can, and working as hard as we can on improving. I don't think everything will be miraculously fixed in 3 months or 9 months or 24 months, but it will keep getting better, and we do believe we can make link research, link analysis and competitive comparison functionality very good over time. Even today, I think we've got the best product on the market for many of the functions here.

[OlivierChateau]

Rand

The one thing that I always appreciated is that you always take the time to explain and give your point of view.

Especially as the head of my company and as an entrepreneur myself i can only thank you for taking the time and energy to do that, it must be recognized and is a big part if the success of your company. As I said before despite this OSE/Linkscape situation, I still like you guys (my co worker offered me a moz sweater for holidays bc I always refer to your metrics/tool & they have little to no SEO knowledge).

BTW i will take this opportunity to ask (rather than request) that you provide some SEO blog specifically in the "consumer health information online space" which is dominated by 3 to 5 key players (which for most of them use very little or have simply ZERO social integration due to the highly regulated market place) yet still enjoy top rankings while guys like us are doing the best to change things. I know it takes time but some SEO perspective on this would be interesting

Thanks again

Olivier

[randfish]

Thanks Olivier - if you shoot me an email with 3-5 search queries you're hoping to analyze, I think it would be fun to do an analysis/plan-of-attack blog post in that space.

[OlivierChateau]

Thanks for responding and I will email you and take you on your offer.

[OlivierChateau]

Thanks for responding and I will email you and take you on your offer.

[Gyorgy]

Hi Oliver,

We use OSE for benchmarking and for report too; however, we also have a link building spreadsheet for every client. In case something happens with OSE or any other third party tool, we still have a reliable source of information and proof for the clients, that we're continuously working.

When I get a new link, I record the page, the domain, PA and DA values, etc., so later if OSE changes, I can still show the clients the number of links we collected and the value of the websites.

Always have a backup solution, don't rely on OSE only. If OSE fails, it's inconvenient, but not tragic.

[CompleteOffice]

Perhaps time now to give a little update about this issue since its been a few months. would be greatly appreciated.

[ShaMenz]

There have been a number of Linkscape updates since September and each of them is generally accompanied by a blog post (sometimes more than one) providing data and explanation of changes in methodology, new features etc.

The Linkscape Update Schedule provides a calendar of planned releases for the future.

The most recent post on the Interim Linkscape Update for January provides information on the release which occurred less than a week ago.

The October Linkscape update brought with it new features for Open Site Explorer.

November saw two LInkscape updates - this one in the first week of the month and the second in the last week of the month.

This post on updated Page Authority & Domain Authority explains the significant changes in the calculation of these metrics which were introduced with that second update in November.

If you want to keep up with future updates the easiest way would be to subscribe to the RSS feed for the SEOmoz Daily Blog ...then new posts will come straight to your inbox or reader when updates are released. Another option is to follow @SEOmoz on Twitter as updates are always notified there.

Hope that helps,

Sha

[mediaspider]

Hi Rand

Firstly, love the SEOmoz brand, videos and the info- think you guys are doing a great job for the industry.

Quickie:

I would like to know a bit more about different reporting and links. I have been using OSE, Alexa and majestic etc I noticed a sharp decrease in links on alexa and OSE. TBH, Every site gives different figures for sites linking in- quite confusing for someone wanting to track this data!

Also what's the recent update on thoughts from the Sept 2011 thing with OSE?

Do you (or others) know why this could be and what are the solutions to reporting back to clients with a definitive answer- if there even is one?

Best  Jake W

[randfish]

Hi Jake -

All the link sources have different indices, hence you'll see different data/numbers from each.

A decrease may mean that parts of what was being crawled no longer is, or it could mean that some pages are no longer active or no longer linking to you.

Not sure what you're referring to with Sept. of 2011 (~9 months ago). You can read all the updates to OSE here: http://www.seomoz.org/blog/category/38

Best of luck!